pussy riot
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D: Do you think it’s some strategy of censorship to invite people into those contexts so that in a way they dilute them?
Y: Yeah, of course. There were people in this particular forum who would not agree with Putin’s line and they made a statement about that, but there was no audience to receive this message. There was no audience in the forum who could understand it. I agree that foreign visitors and guests should go to make a statement there, because it can really make a change. Also, this situation with Kirill Serebrennikov* and the Ministry of Culture…
M: I think that the situation with Kirill, when it became international, was also an example of an influence that artists and let’s say other cultural figures can have in terms of the internal politics of Russia. But it’s a different situation with us [Pussy Riot], because we’d never been involved in any government structure, like the Ministry of Culture.
D: Has this particular show [Riot Days] been performed in Russia? I think I read it was private...
M: It was performed twice. After the first performance, the venue was closed. I mean, it wasn’t closed, they just ejected the occupants from the building. The second one happened just after we came back from the US tour, we came up with the idea to do it again in Moscow and there were maybe thirty or forty times when different venues said no. At the beginning they said yes, and they were so excited we would be there, but after two days they called us and said ‘we are really surprised but the owners of the building said no’. And there were ten times like that, and ten more just a straightforward no, even from very underground places. But for me that wasn’t surprising at all, for me it was a surprise that I found people who actually said yes. I was so happy. The second performance was in a small gallery owned by our friends. They’re totally not connected with any government structure. It wasn’t private, it was totally open. We just didn’t announce it. I would be happy to do more in Russia. I received some invitations from very little towns, like 100km from Moscow. I think it could be a really interesting experience, I love villages.
Y: But this is dangerous (laughing).
M: Come on, no!
Y: Yeah, of course. There were people in this particular forum who would not agree with Putin’s line and they made a statement about that, but there was no audience to receive this message. There was no audience in the forum who could understand it. I agree that foreign visitors and guests should go to make a statement there, because it can really make a change. Also, this situation with Kirill Serebrennikov* and the Ministry of Culture…
M: I think that the situation with Kirill, when it became international, was also an example of an influence that artists and let’s say other cultural figures can have in terms of the internal politics of Russia. But it’s a different situation with us [Pussy Riot], because we’d never been involved in any government structure, like the Ministry of Culture.
D: Has this particular show [Riot Days] been performed in Russia? I think I read it was private...
M: It was performed twice. After the first performance, the venue was closed. I mean, it wasn’t closed, they just ejected the occupants from the building. The second one happened just after we came back from the US tour, we came up with the idea to do it again in Moscow and there were maybe thirty or forty times when different venues said no. At the beginning they said yes, and they were so excited we would be there, but after two days they called us and said ‘we are really surprised but the owners of the building said no’. And there were ten times like that, and ten more just a straightforward no, even from very underground places. But for me that wasn’t surprising at all, for me it was a surprise that I found people who actually said yes. I was so happy. The second performance was in a small gallery owned by our friends. They’re totally not connected with any government structure. It wasn’t private, it was totally open. We just didn’t announce it. I would be happy to do more in Russia. I received some invitations from very little towns, like 100km from Moscow. I think it could be a really interesting experience, I love villages.
Y: But this is dangerous (laughing).
M: Come on, no!
D: Obviously from what you’re saying there are people who are afraid of being involved, of touching the show?
M: Yeah. Pussy Riot is like ‘red’ material. Their fear is based on reality because they can be easily kicked out of their building. It’s not just self-censorship, it’s part of the reality. We can’t change reality, we should just continue. For example, when myself and Nadya [Nadezhda Andreyevna Tolokonnikova] were released, we started MediaZona, which is an independent media outlet covering violations of human rights and freedoms. There were so many people who said to us that it’s impossible, nobody will write about prisons, nobody will share this news, nobody will be interested in going to this deep hell of prison reality. But after two years, it became one of the most quoted media sources in the Russian internet sphere. If you look at the statistics, it’s in the top ten in the ratings. Even government media quote it because it’s unique content. I think, if you really want something, you will do it. It just sometimes takes time.
D: I want to know if there are any repercussions for you, Yury, in being involved in this show.
Y: I don’t think about this. It’s totally wrong to think about your reputation if you’re doing art. I don’t work with government organisations. I don’t work with government theatres. I do some occasional projects connected with the Ministry of Culture, but it’s very rare.
D: How did this collaboration start?
M: We’ve known each other almost a year and this collaboration happened because of Alexander [Cheparukhin], who is the producer of the show, who I met for the first time when I was in the penal colony in the Ural Mountains. He was there with a music festival and somehow he knew I was there and he paid a short visit to the penal colony and we started to talk a lot and we became friends, but after that everybody stopped working with him. At the beginning of this year, when we decided we wanted to put my book on the stage, Alexander introduced me to Yury and that’s how we met each other. I met Yury near the courts and theatres during the prosecution of Kirill, and he’s been a part of the protest demonstrations, so I think we are part of one community.
M: Yeah. Pussy Riot is like ‘red’ material. Their fear is based on reality because they can be easily kicked out of their building. It’s not just self-censorship, it’s part of the reality. We can’t change reality, we should just continue. For example, when myself and Nadya [Nadezhda Andreyevna Tolokonnikova] were released, we started MediaZona, which is an independent media outlet covering violations of human rights and freedoms. There were so many people who said to us that it’s impossible, nobody will write about prisons, nobody will share this news, nobody will be interested in going to this deep hell of prison reality. But after two years, it became one of the most quoted media sources in the Russian internet sphere. If you look at the statistics, it’s in the top ten in the ratings. Even government media quote it because it’s unique content. I think, if you really want something, you will do it. It just sometimes takes time.
D: I want to know if there are any repercussions for you, Yury, in being involved in this show.
Y: I don’t think about this. It’s totally wrong to think about your reputation if you’re doing art. I don’t work with government organisations. I don’t work with government theatres. I do some occasional projects connected with the Ministry of Culture, but it’s very rare.
D: How did this collaboration start?
M: We’ve known each other almost a year and this collaboration happened because of Alexander [Cheparukhin], who is the producer of the show, who I met for the first time when I was in the penal colony in the Ural Mountains. He was there with a music festival and somehow he knew I was there and he paid a short visit to the penal colony and we started to talk a lot and we became friends, but after that everybody stopped working with him. At the beginning of this year, when we decided we wanted to put my book on the stage, Alexander introduced me to Yury and that’s how we met each other. I met Yury near the courts and theatres during the prosecution of Kirill, and he’s been a part of the protest demonstrations, so I think we are part of one community.
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I do not think I’m playing myself here because I’m not playing at all
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D: Why was it important for you to choose theatre as the medium to adapt the book?
M: It’s a form of protest art. I believe that there are very many forms of political art. We started five years ago with straight actions and after that we tried other forms as well, such as the last words [final statements] in the court trial, which is a dissident literary form, and prison protests, where you need to know the law and I won the court case against the prison guards, which made me totally happy. And after we were released, we started MediaZona, which is the independent media outlet I mentioned already. And last year, I decided I wanted to get to know political theatre. It’s another form, it’s very interesting and very new for me. It’s just intuition and my desire to experiment.
D: I think it’s an interesting question because certainly for me in my own work I’ve been frustrated with theatre because of its limited audience, especially with something very political or that has an activist point. Sometimes theatre has a real limit in how many people you can talk to.
Y: Yeah, I understand, but I think our project is not just theatre. It’s theatre, music… it’s musical performance.
M: I think it’s just a manifesto…
Y: Yeah, it’s a form to tell a manifesto. Because when Alexander asked me if I wanted to make this show, I said I would answer after reading the book. Because I like the book, I made the show. It’s a very important step for me to make a project like this. It’s a manifesto, so I tried to find some form for this manifesto. In this situation, the most important thing is the idea, the manifesto. And the art form, it’s secondary.
D: So the ethics are more important than the aesthetics?
Y: Yes, more important. We should lead with the idea of this particular manifesto and not divert the attention of the audience with unnecessary details. It’s not entertainment. The way for this show is maximum clarity, provide the idea and energy. Energy is fundamental for this show.
D: I was reading this statement by Marina Abramovic…
M: She is one of the biggest inspirations for me.
D: I think her early work’s incredible, I think in the last years in a way for me she went towards parody a bit too much and she seemed to disdain theatre in a way. She has made statements like ‘What you see in performance art is real, what you see on the stage is fake', so therefore it’s lesser. In this situation it seems like more of a hybrid because it’s actually you on stage. Is this authenticity important? Do you think it could be somebody else?
M: I do not think I’m playing myself here because I’m not playing at all. It’s a live book, it’s this message we want people to receive. And the message is very simple, it’s the message of 'riot'. Which we tell through my story and through our story and through music.
Y: When Masha is on the stage, this is not Masha Alyokhina, this is an artist who communicates some ideas, some energy. It’s something like Bertolt Brecht. Brecht saw that if you want to share a message, you need to do something not about characters, not about narrative, not about story, but about ideas. This is it.
D: What about the process of how you made this show?
M: Process? (laughter) So, we had very limited time. We had three weeks and my book. So we went to Montenegro, because we didn’t have money, to rehearse for free in a small bar owned by some friends. So for ten hours per day we were in this tiny room. We had the first performance on 28th of February this year in the bar and we invited lots of Russians and Montenegrins as well. And I think one of the first times I knew that we were making the right thing was a moment when a really old theatre director from Montenegro came to the show, he was watching and he didn’t speak English very well but anyway he sat in the front row and watched the whole show. After, he said it was like an avant-garde performance from the beginning of the 20th century. He was totally serious. I understood then that even without speaking the language, even in the first performance, even in a bar…
D: He got the spirit… and where do you go next?
Y: Belfast and after that I don’t know.
M: To London.
D: Nadya also has a show in London at the moment, right?
M: Yes, Nadya is at the Saatchi Gallery right now, yes.
D: Have you seen the show?
M: No. I’m exchanging messages with Nadya, but I haven’t seen the show.
D: I just think it’s interesting that the two of you have theatre shows at the same time.
M: It happens. (laughter)
Y: It’s not unusual. It’s an accident, a coincidence.
D: Ok, well I won’t take any more of your time. I’m looking forward to the show tonight – I bought a ticket ages ago.
M: Ok! I will go smoke because after I will meet our friends from Repeal.
D: One question – would you mind signing my book?
M: Yes! Yury, you know Repeal? You know abortions are illegal in Ireland? Repeal is an organisation and team of activists who are trying to fight for the law which will make them legal, because it’s not right that a woman would go to prison because of an abortion. I’m meeting them for a talk in 15 minutes.
D: Thank you Masha! See you later. Nice to meet you. Best of luck tonight.
M: It’s a form of protest art. I believe that there are very many forms of political art. We started five years ago with straight actions and after that we tried other forms as well, such as the last words [final statements] in the court trial, which is a dissident literary form, and prison protests, where you need to know the law and I won the court case against the prison guards, which made me totally happy. And after we were released, we started MediaZona, which is the independent media outlet I mentioned already. And last year, I decided I wanted to get to know political theatre. It’s another form, it’s very interesting and very new for me. It’s just intuition and my desire to experiment.
D: I think it’s an interesting question because certainly for me in my own work I’ve been frustrated with theatre because of its limited audience, especially with something very political or that has an activist point. Sometimes theatre has a real limit in how many people you can talk to.
Y: Yeah, I understand, but I think our project is not just theatre. It’s theatre, music… it’s musical performance.
M: I think it’s just a manifesto…
Y: Yeah, it’s a form to tell a manifesto. Because when Alexander asked me if I wanted to make this show, I said I would answer after reading the book. Because I like the book, I made the show. It’s a very important step for me to make a project like this. It’s a manifesto, so I tried to find some form for this manifesto. In this situation, the most important thing is the idea, the manifesto. And the art form, it’s secondary.
D: So the ethics are more important than the aesthetics?
Y: Yes, more important. We should lead with the idea of this particular manifesto and not divert the attention of the audience with unnecessary details. It’s not entertainment. The way for this show is maximum clarity, provide the idea and energy. Energy is fundamental for this show.
D: I was reading this statement by Marina Abramovic…
M: She is one of the biggest inspirations for me.
D: I think her early work’s incredible, I think in the last years in a way for me she went towards parody a bit too much and she seemed to disdain theatre in a way. She has made statements like ‘What you see in performance art is real, what you see on the stage is fake', so therefore it’s lesser. In this situation it seems like more of a hybrid because it’s actually you on stage. Is this authenticity important? Do you think it could be somebody else?
M: I do not think I’m playing myself here because I’m not playing at all. It’s a live book, it’s this message we want people to receive. And the message is very simple, it’s the message of 'riot'. Which we tell through my story and through our story and through music.
Y: When Masha is on the stage, this is not Masha Alyokhina, this is an artist who communicates some ideas, some energy. It’s something like Bertolt Brecht. Brecht saw that if you want to share a message, you need to do something not about characters, not about narrative, not about story, but about ideas. This is it.
D: What about the process of how you made this show?
M: Process? (laughter) So, we had very limited time. We had three weeks and my book. So we went to Montenegro, because we didn’t have money, to rehearse for free in a small bar owned by some friends. So for ten hours per day we were in this tiny room. We had the first performance on 28th of February this year in the bar and we invited lots of Russians and Montenegrins as well. And I think one of the first times I knew that we were making the right thing was a moment when a really old theatre director from Montenegro came to the show, he was watching and he didn’t speak English very well but anyway he sat in the front row and watched the whole show. After, he said it was like an avant-garde performance from the beginning of the 20th century. He was totally serious. I understood then that even without speaking the language, even in the first performance, even in a bar…
D: He got the spirit… and where do you go next?
Y: Belfast and after that I don’t know.
M: To London.
D: Nadya also has a show in London at the moment, right?
M: Yes, Nadya is at the Saatchi Gallery right now, yes.
D: Have you seen the show?
M: No. I’m exchanging messages with Nadya, but I haven’t seen the show.
D: I just think it’s interesting that the two of you have theatre shows at the same time.
M: It happens. (laughter)
Y: It’s not unusual. It’s an accident, a coincidence.
D: Ok, well I won’t take any more of your time. I’m looking forward to the show tonight – I bought a ticket ages ago.
M: Ok! I will go smoke because after I will meet our friends from Repeal.
D: One question – would you mind signing my book?
M: Yes! Yury, you know Repeal? You know abortions are illegal in Ireland? Repeal is an organisation and team of activists who are trying to fight for the law which will make them legal, because it’s not right that a woman would go to prison because of an abortion. I’m meeting them for a talk in 15 minutes.
D: Thank you Masha! See you later. Nice to meet you. Best of luck tonight.
MASHA WITH REPRESENTATIVES FROM FREE, SAFE, LEGAL, THE ABORTION RIGHTS CAMPAIGN IN IRELAND.
IMAGES: MAEVE STONE
IMAGES: MAEVE STONE
Y: Did you like St. Petersburg Dylan? Was it your first time in Russia?
D: It was a confusing experience because we were there as guests, we were in a hotel, everything seemed fantastic, but obviously there is another reality. You know, when you read Masha’s book, the two experiences of Russia have nothing in common. Two completely different realities. This is why I was asking at the beginning, are we participating in this performance? Because in the end it’s a performance, for us and for everybody else.
Y: What about the audience in St. Petersburg? Who came to see your show?
D: Again it’s difficult to know – the first day, I think it was mostly people who were invited by the Cultural Forum, maybe from other theatres, other institutions in the city. It was a strange atmosphere, very official, almost dead in the eyes.
Y: Yeah I understand that!
D: The second day it seemed there were more young people.
Y: My friend was at this Forum and he tried to say something. They said, ‘But who will listen?’ In this
Forum, the audience don’t want to listen to the story of Kirill Serebrennikov, or other problems. People don’t want to listen. It’s not good, but it’s true. It’s a government atmosphere. This is why I work in an independent theatre, and teach in an independent school. In Russia, it’s very difficult to work with the government. Yeah, this is it.
D: Yury, thank you very much. Nice to meet you.
Y: Nice to meet you too.
D: It was a confusing experience because we were there as guests, we were in a hotel, everything seemed fantastic, but obviously there is another reality. You know, when you read Masha’s book, the two experiences of Russia have nothing in common. Two completely different realities. This is why I was asking at the beginning, are we participating in this performance? Because in the end it’s a performance, for us and for everybody else.
Y: What about the audience in St. Petersburg? Who came to see your show?
D: Again it’s difficult to know – the first day, I think it was mostly people who were invited by the Cultural Forum, maybe from other theatres, other institutions in the city. It was a strange atmosphere, very official, almost dead in the eyes.
Y: Yeah I understand that!
D: The second day it seemed there were more young people.
Y: My friend was at this Forum and he tried to say something. They said, ‘But who will listen?’ In this
Forum, the audience don’t want to listen to the story of Kirill Serebrennikov, or other problems. People don’t want to listen. It’s not good, but it’s true. It’s a government atmosphere. This is why I work in an independent theatre, and teach in an independent school. In Russia, it’s very difficult to work with the government. Yeah, this is it.
D: Yury, thank you very much. Nice to meet you.
Y: Nice to meet you too.
Riot Days was performed at The Button Factory, Dublin on November 23rd, and at the Mandela Hall Belfast on November 24th 2017. The book on which the show is based was published by Metropolitan Books in September 2017. More on Pussy Riot here.
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*Kirill Serebrennikov is the artistic director of the Gogol Centre in Moscow. He was placed under house arrest from August to October 2017 by the Russian government, accused of fraud relating to state funds.
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*Kirill Serebrennikov is the artistic director of the Gogol Centre in Moscow. He was placed under house arrest from August to October 2017 by the Russian government, accused of fraud relating to state funds.